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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 8:49:49 GMT -5
And on another note. I was/am a bit hesitant posting this post with all the Anita bashing. I agree we are all entitled opinions. But it is kind of discouraging when you click on an author's thread to post something that you like and see a bunch of bashing on the series. So guys, can we lighten up on the Anita Bashing? Sorry Mouse. It comes from liking a series and having it turned to crap in your eyes. Ya know? It just got changed so much, and for the worse. I agree with what you said about Jason though. I remember liking him for those reasons too. I don't want you to feel you can't post about your likes though. If you read something and want to post about it, do it! That's what we're here for! Well, just as you do, we have the right to state our opinions, too. As it happens, the people who are disappointed seem to be in the majority. Post as you will, it won't change anyone's mind. I would hope that we are all mature enough not to make any comments personal. Well said. And I think you're right. As time goes by, I think more and more people give up on the series.
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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 9:01:31 GMT -5
I love a good snark myself. Hell if you live in Seattle it's all around. I don't mean to impede on anyone. I guess that's why I'm such a worry wort and a few silver stray hairs at 22. Dude, I worry too much too. I have 3 gray hairs that like to come back, but I've got almost a decade on you. What? Seattle is extra snarky? I didn't know that. Hmm... See? Some of them seem to embrace their lycanthropy more than others, but I think that has alot to do with the kind of person they were to begin with. Remember Raina? Man, she was a bitch, but a very good were. She embraced her other half. Richard is too sweet a person, it goes against his nature. And the killing off of Raina and the munin when every wolf in a 10 mile radius wants to shag Anita was so friggin' ridiculous I want to puke. It's that kind of stuff that starts to get on the nerves to the point that I gave up on the series. Raven's Ranting on the series now: The way I see it is that there can be no stronger or more desirable female than Anita. She can abandon her morals of old when it comes to sleeping with the monsters because she HAS TO, don'tcha know. It's that godawful ardeur, so it's not really her fault. Her master vampire boyfriend somehow even always needs her help. She's human, yet more powerful than him. Anita always saves the day- no matter how many bad-ass friends and accomplices she has, she's always the one to come to the rescue.
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Post by alegra on Jun 12, 2008 12:59:01 GMT -5
And the killing off of Raina and the munin when every wolf in a 10 mile radius wants to shag Anita was so friggin' ridiculous I want to puke. It's that kind of stuff that starts to get on the nerves to the point that I gave up on the series. I saw it as her being in heat? They are werewolves and closest in the animal kingdom to dogs. When you picture it, the scene is laughable. It reminds me of the movie "Love Potion No. 9" when all the men in the city are following that woman. I agree with Raven's rant. Part of the reason I liked Anita was that she was human(necromancer, yeah) but she wasn't infallible. She made mistakes and knew when she screwed up. After CS, I just felt that LKH was trying to make her into some deity and that bored me. Snark *zombie walk* Anita is all-knowing and hypnotizes men with her vagingo.
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Post by mouse on Jun 12, 2008 14:10:17 GMT -5
Dude, I worry too much too. I have 3 gray hairs that like to come back, but I've got almost a decade on you. Only 3 gray hairs? I have like 10. That's why I keep dying my hair. Plus premature gray hair runs in my family. My mom had a full set of gray hair by the time she was 45. I'm starting at a younger age. Go me! I actually thought Raina needed to die. She might have embraced her other half well. But she was well an uber bitch and what she was doing to her weres were wrong. The mumin on the other hand I do like. Laurell researched that one pretty well. And it fits Anita well. She raises the dead and the munin is the collection of dead spirits in the were community. The Freyja (what she became when she made herself loose the ties of lupa and Ulfric for other mates) is true though was kind of ridiculous now that you know what's going on during the rest of the series you can't help but be bias after reading the rest of the books. When you first read BM or at least me I thought it was an interesting fact now when you look back on it some are like 'wow. that was cheesy and ridiculous.'
I completely understand when you really like a series then suddenly it changes and in a way you don't like. It skewers your opinion on the rest of the books you liked in the series and it gets to the point where you don't even want to look at them. And it is really sad because you once really did like them and connected with the characters. And sometimes it is not just in the series it could be in author's writing like she started a different series and it was completely what you are so not used too. It changes your opinion of the author and you go back to look at her other works and start thinking like it is crap. That happened with me and Anne Rice.
I hate the ardeur. It changed too much of her personality and brought way too many men to her life. I like how she only like Jean-Claude or Richard. I like how she stuck to her guns and refused to be manipulated by anyone. Or let anyone walk over her. I really like her hard place she went to kill people and let people have it who talked shit to her. The ardeur changed that. She was so much like the old Edward. Now they both changed. I don't like that change. That's what I like about this new book. She might have gotten rid of the ardeur or at least a good portion of it. Though she infected Richard with it. I think he might be able to handle it better than Anita. It's hard to be a female and being infected with something like that. Everyone end up thinking you are some slut or whore. While if you are a male... It's the whole double standard thing. One thing I do like the most is how her opinion changed from they are all monsters to real people. In her line of work she can't just go around thinking that they are monsters and thinking that they are civilians too. It made her a better Federal Marshall who actually cares if a case is solved and the correct bad guy is found guilty and not an innocent. Okay I'll stop my ranting/babbling. Now and end with this. If Vicki ever changed I would stick by her! I love her way too much. Though if Hunter becomes a shadow I'm going to cry.
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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 14:20:55 GMT -5
I completely understand when you really like a series then suddenly it changes and in a way you don't like. It skewers your opinion on the rest of the books you liked in the series and it gets to the point where you don't even want to look at them. That happened with me and Anne Rice. Yeah, I can't even read the earlier books because I know what's coming and I CRINGE! As for Anne Rice, I gave her a try and I just couldn't get into her books. Exactly. The ardeur is so friggin' stupid. But the author lets it all persist. Ooooooh, do not go there.
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Post by mouse on Jun 12, 2008 14:29:39 GMT -5
Ooooooh, do not go there. I'm not going THERE. I love Vicki! She's too cool for school cool.
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Post by deathlynx on Jun 12, 2008 17:26:12 GMT -5
I have to agree with Mouse about the thread...I stopped trying to post here because of the same thing...yes everyone is entitled to their oppinion and certainly to post it, but it got to the point where 9 out of 10 posts in the thread were "I hate where the series has gone, Anita's become a skank/whore/slut"... While I happen to agree with some of the assesment it meant that I felt there was no point posting any positive thoughts, much less agreement, when it would only spark another round of it...
Mouse, very good to hear about the book...I'm probably not going to pick it up myself until it hits paperback...heck it's a novella, I'm not going to pay HC price for one...I did with Micah and won't again...
I think the reason people are more fixated on the sex in the Anita series is because it started out as horror...If people wanted to read sex, they went to the Merry Gentry series and read Anita more for plot and the like...Unfortunately, with Anita gaining powers (an inevitable situation when each badguy has to be a bit stronger than the last to pose a threat) there needs to be a weakness...I think Hamilton probably thought the Ardeur was a cool idea...she could give Anita a weakness and maybe throw a little sex into the series...Unfortunately it took over the series for one reason or another...
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Post by mouse on Jun 12, 2008 18:33:07 GMT -5
I didn't buy the book. I wasn't willing to pay the price but I put a request at my library as soon as it came in. Luckily it only takes like 2 weeks for the book to come in if you are high on the list.
I agree with you Death about the ardeur. Hamilton probably did think it was a weakness but never took in account on how it would truly affect Anita. Like most writers their characters take life of their own. So when she introduced it to Anita she didn't know the gratifications on how it would truly affect Anita later on. It took a life of it's own than what she expected. I bet if she could take it back she might but it might effect how she rights.
I know Vicki said once that once you change one detail about a character or book it changes everything. You could end up with bad writer's block. I tried to change something about a character to suit me in one of my rpg's and my character was so used to her old identity that she didn't take it very well and blocked me until I changed it back.
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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 18:58:39 GMT -5
I have to agree with Mouse about the thread...I stopped trying to post here because of the same thing...yes everyone is entitled to their oppinion and certainly to post it, but it got to the point where 9 out of 10 posts in the thread were "I hate where the series has gone, Anita's become a skank/whore/slut"... While I happen to agree with some of the assesment it meant that I felt there was no point posting any positive thoughts, much less agreement, when it would only spark another round of it... Sorry guys. Opposing opinions shouldn't discourage posts. It should ENCOURAGE them. Please keep posting. HC novella? WTF? I thought the book Micah was PB when it came out. EXACTLY! I've never read the Merry Gentry series, but from what I understand, they're all sex. I wish she would've just kept the 2 series separate in that way. But, oh well. To those of you who still enjoy the Anita series, what do you think of Micah, the character?
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Post by mouse on Jun 12, 2008 19:12:23 GMT -5
I hate Micah. He's just a yes man. He came into Anita's life on false terms. I know he was forced by an evil man but I just keep thinking he has more secrets and there is more to him than what we know.
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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 19:18:45 GMT -5
I don't like him either. I think he's too convenient. And I think considering Anita's 5'2"-ish and busty, she shouldn't be sharing clothes with her boyfriend. The odds of having having non-dwarf men her height are so freakin' rare and she has more than just Micah, IIRC. Micah just glides in and fits. His super schlong grosses me out.
Dare we approach the shower scene (their first time)? I know it was controversial. I don't want to offend anyone. But I'd really like another guy's opinion. Was it rape or not rape, in your opinions? There are differences between the HC and PB versions and I have them, if you want them posted. (I've engaged in this discussion before.) ;D But first, from what you remember... was it rape?
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Post by mouse on Jun 12, 2008 19:26:03 GMT -5
I do agree that Micah was way to convenient. He fits in too well. I just do like it.
Like did he rape Anita? Not in the scene that she didn't say no. But he knew that she wasn't in the right state of mind plus they barely knew each other.
I just think he took advantage of the situation a bit but then again Anita didn't say no.
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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 19:28:50 GMT -5
Okay, here's the scene just to clarify.
Hardcover:
Micah turned me towards the wall, putting my hands up against the tile, pressing his body against my back.
I found I did have a voice and said, "Micah, stop, please stop."
Micah licked the back of my neck, and I shuddered, pressed against the wet wall.
"Please, Micah, I'm not on birth control." A clear thought at last.
He bit softly at the back of my neck. "I had myself fixed two years ago. You're safe with me, Anita."
"Please, Micah, please don't."
He bit harder, just this side of drawing blood, and my body went passive, calm . It was as if he'd hit a switch I didn't know I had. When he pressed him self inside me, he was slick, and I knew that sometime when I'd been paying attention to Jean-Claude inside my head, he'd spread more soap on him self, allowing that thick hardness to slide more easily inside me. He pinned me to the wall and slid inside me, one tight inch at a time. It wasn't that he was long so much as he was wide--wide enough that it was just this side of pain to have him work him self inside me, even with the soap.
Paperback:
Micah turned me towards the wall, putting my hands up against the tile, pressing his body against my back.
I found I did have a voice and said, "Micah, please." I was no longer sure what I was asking. Micah licked the back of my neck, and I shuddered, pressed against the wet wall.
"Please, Micah, I'm not on birth control." A clear thought at last.
He bit softly at the back of my neck. "I had myself fixed two years ago. You're safe with me, Anita."
"Please, Micah, please don't, If we have sex I'll feed on you. Feed on you like some kind of vampire."
"Then feed, if that's what you need, what you want."
He bit harder, just this side of drawing blood, and my body went passive, calm. It was as if he'd hit a switch I didn't know I had. When he pressed himself inside me, he was slick, and I knew that sometime when I'd been paying attention to Jean-Claude inside my head, he'd spread more soap on himself, allowing that thick hardness to slide more easily inside me.
He pinned me to the wall and slid inside me, one tight inch at a time. It wasn't that he was long so much as he was wide, wide enough that it was just this side of pain to have him work himself inside me, even with the soap.
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Post by Raven on Jun 12, 2008 19:31:55 GMT -5
Back on topic of rape/not rape, for old discussion purposes, I've compiled a list of the changes made in the scene in question. Seeing them back to back really makes it easier, in my opinion. (My comments are in pink to help see what I said and what was actually in the book.) "HC" means what was written in the hardcover version and "PB" means the paperback version. I underlined what I thought to be the pertinent parts.* * * * * * * * Here, the two different versions back to back I think showcase it all well. HC- "Micah stop, please stop." PB- "Micah, please." I was no longer sure what I was asking.I think there is a definite difference there. Her saying she wasn't sure anymore is alot different that saying stop twice in a row.HC- "Please, Micah, please don't." PB- "Please, Micah, please don't, If we have sex I'll feed on you. Feed on you like some kind of vampire."I took this as if she felt it would be wrong to use Micah in that way. Or as if she was trying to talk herself out of something she wanted but shouldn't want. (Does that make sense?)HC- he'd spread more soap on himself, allowing that thick hardness to slide more easily inside me. He pinned me to the wall and slid inside me, one tight inch at a time. PB- he'd spread more soap on himself, allowing that thick hardness to slide more easily inside me.Having noted the differences, I'd like to point out a few things in the paperback edition (maybe both, I dunno) that seem to me to show it was consensual. (In italics are verbatim from the book, I underlined the parts I wanted to emphasize.)I realized it was more than just sex. I wanted to feed off of him again, and not with my teeth, but with my body. I wanted to drink in the energy of him through my skin, my bare skin pressed to his. I wanted it so badly. My arms slid around his waistMy hands moved over the slick hardness of his back, sliding dangerously lower. It was as if I wanted to press every inch of myself to him, to roll his body around me like a sheet and drink him in through the pores of my skin.My hand slid over the thick hardness of Micah(Her movements, her choice to embrace him) Micah dragged me into the water, surer now than ever that I would say yes.I'm not sure what to think about that one, but thought it should be included.But I didn’t want to move, didn’t want to stop and there was no thinking, just the feel of him moving in and out of me.He was gentle, but he was so big that even gentle was almost overwhelming. His size was intimidating, but when I realized it didn’t hurt, in fact, that it felt wonderful, a part of me that was still sane, still keeping track of some safety measures, relaxed and shut down. I didn’t want sex. That was just a means to an end. I wanted to feed. I wanted to eat his lust, drink his heat, bathe in his energy. This could support either point of view, I think.began to find a rhythm, still gentle, but quicker. He was being so careful of me, and I didn’t want him careful. I heard a voice that didn’t quite sound like mine. “Harder.” His voice came out squeezed tight. “It will hurt if I do it harder.” “Try me.” “No.” “Micah, please, just do it, please. If it hurts I’ll tell you. Please.” I didn’t want to feed off of him. It was wrong, in so many ways it was wrong. I started to say, “Micah stop, I can’t do this.” I got as far as, “Micah…” and he took me at my word. He thrust into me so hard and fast it tore a scream from my throat and brought that new part of me that was Jean-Claude’s hunger in a raging wave of heat that rode my body and spilled out my mouthAgain, this could support either side, IMHO. "spilled"? He stopped. “Are you alright?” “Don’t stop. Don’t stop!”Whaddya think? It really shows how LKH was trying to make a change though. Apparently there was some reader backlash after the original hardcover release of NiC, and she changed the scene.
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Post by mouse on Jun 12, 2008 19:39:03 GMT -5
I read the paperback. Wow there isn't much different except that one line where she said "Micah, stop, please stop." and the feeding part. But does leave the impression that he might have raped her.
That scene along probably change the whole series.
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