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Post by dawn8226 on Sept 30, 2009 8:42:18 GMT -5
I don't see Jo as that different from Hunter in the things that they have done. Jo has messed up repeatedly, we always understand why she did what she did because the books are written from her point of view. But Hunter we have to wait to find out about his motivations until Jo does. After reading Dark Matters and CoS I can't hate the guy or really find fault with his actions (but go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, I could be persuaded otherwise). He messed up when he had the whole relationship with Solange the first time, that was bad. And he was working with Regan to get back to Midheaven (although I think he wanted to go to Midheaven and find Sola for revenge and to get Lola, not necessarily to renew his relationship with Sola). He did hide these things from the troop, but I don't see how its really that much worse than things Jo did. Like letting Regan live and meeting with her for information which put the troop in jeopardy. Jo did these things to get at Jaquin (spelled wrong?) and to try kill him for what he did to her years ago. She hid things and worked on her own against what Warren wanted for her own individual desires. And Hunter was patient waiting for Jo and when it finally happened she left him after he almost begged her to stay. They both have flaws, they both mess up, they aren't perfect, which is probably why I love them so much. ;D So feel free to tell me why I'm wrong about Hunter and he is so bad and so much worse than Jo, maybe I've forgotten some of the bad things he's done just cuz he's so hot. Ha ha ha.
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Post by montbriac on Sept 30, 2009 17:32:23 GMT -5
Hey, Megan might be hot, but apparently she doesn't even know the crew exists, that's a complete turnoff to me...having been one of the little people, I can't stand those who take them for granted... Can he have a rebirth? He might even deserve it (though he has blown two so far as you point out)...but I don't think he deserves Jolivia, and I don't think she deserves to have to put up with waiting for him to shape up... It's not just the waiting for him to get it together, how about the fact that he's always testing her -- and never really letting her know what the score is until after he's already graded her as it were? Hunter is a compelling character, no doubt about it. I love reading about him and I want to see him become the man he should have been -- but the fact remains that he's never really been who he was supposed to be, an honorable hero. The scenes with Hunter and Jo are the most charged and some of the best reading -- I can't get enough of them. That said, I am not sure my entertainment is enough of a justification for Jo to be with Hunter. I think Jo deserves a stand-up guy who will stand by her. I want Hunter to be that guy, but his track record is really pretty erratic. Hunter is great reading though, no doubt about that and he remains one of my favorites.
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Post by nat on Sept 30, 2009 18:43:49 GMT -5
Hey, Megan might be hot, but apparently she doesn't even know the crew exists, that's a complete turnoff to me...having been one of the little people, I can't stand those who take them for granted... I agree with Dawn. As much as I love Hunter, I somewhat agree that he has on some level fixated solely on his own agenda and not given the whole troop much consideration at times, but can't they all be accused of that? I mean all for one and one for all is fine and dandy, but sometimes you have to think about yourself and do things that matter to you. I mean look at Jo. Her solo escapades have also endangered the troop because she sometimes doesn't consider the ramifications of her actions. That was fine in the first book when she didn't know any better, but in the second when she attempted to go after Joaquin on her own, it was downright stupid and had purely selfish motivations (which are completely justified in my opinion). Same can be said about Hunter. He acted as Warren's super soldier after he fucked things up royally with Solange, but when he though he could have a shot as his psycho wife and his kid, he went for it. Can you really blame him or Jo for doing things that are only for them and not for the troop? As far as Jo and Hunter together...I agree with Montbriac in that he might not be the most stable guy for Jo, and he has a lot of stuff to work out, but the again, she has her own shit to settle. Just because she woke up and realized she loved him, and everything else in her love life (ie Ben) was settled, she expected him to jump back in their relationship with both feet. Just because she might be ready, it doesn't necessarily mean that he has to, also. Come to think of it, they are actually quite similar in a lot of ways...
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Post by Raven on Sept 30, 2009 19:02:31 GMT -5
Very good points, Dawn. Perspective makes all the difference, doesn't it?
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Post by deathlynx on Oct 1, 2009 15:35:39 GMT -5
I know that Jo's done something very simmilar, but you also have to consider that frequently she's done it, at least in part, because she wasn't making a truly informed descission...Warren keeps so much from her that you can't entirely fault her for a lot of her choices (though some she has made fully knowing, like trusting Regan in ToN)...Worse still, she gets guilted into thinking she's entirely at fault when a good portion of the time she hasn't been...
case in point, being out when the disease was released, no one could have known something was going on, much less that being in the boneyard would effect them...yet they go after her like she intentionally brought the disease in...
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redmalkav
Mere Mortal
No Poet is this Jester Kin, Instead he is the Harlequin
Posts: 17
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Post by redmalkav on Oct 3, 2009 23:56:39 GMT -5
This is my first post on the boards, and, judging by reaction to him thus far, I'm guessing my favourite character is not gonna make me too popular, (here's hoping my sparkling personality does that for me,) but my personal favourite character is actually Warren.
He's a character with a job to do and a survivor complex. He makes the hard decisions that nobody else would ever want to make. Yes, he's an asshole with trust issues, but that seems to be something that could be said of almost everyone in the main cast at this point.
He's got the best interests of the troop and, through them, the City at heart. He's not above using any advantage at his disposal (Unfortunately, Jo included,) to attain his ultimate goal, and seems to have stoppped seeing his troupers as anything more than resources to be tapped at his whim and convenience, all of which stems from being the "Troupe Leader" twenty-four/seven for the last... Decade and a half? Two Decades? (I read the first two books in the series right after they came out and haven't reread them since, a problem I intend to rectify in short order,) without taking enough days off. He's let himself drift off from the better part of his humanity.
Oddly enough, I nothinged Hunter. Never really had strong feelings for him one way or the other for very long, until CoS, after which I think the only way he'll find a full and total redemption is in a truly noble and selfless death... But that's just my opinion.
I think my least favourite character was probably Ben. I'm not sure Why. He always just rubbed me the wrong way from his very first appearance. No real logical reasoning behind it, far as I can tell, I just never liked him.
And that's my Two Cents.
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Post by deathlynx on Oct 4, 2009 17:16:41 GMT -5
And 2 cents well worth the read! Well said RedMalkav...That wouldn't happen to be a White Wolf refference would it?
I can certainly understand that about Warren, it just happens that overly controlling and manipulative is a pet peave of mine...
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Post by Raven on Oct 8, 2009 11:11:47 GMT -5
I see your reasoning, redmalkav, I just think Warren is a fucktard of the highest order. I can't stand liars and/or manipulators. Warren is a sneaky, slimy snake with a holier-than-thou complex that makes me itch.
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redmalkav
Mere Mortal
No Poet is this Jester Kin, Instead he is the Harlequin
Posts: 17
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Post by redmalkav on Oct 8, 2009 19:25:40 GMT -5
Why, Yes it is Deathlynx, (and Kudos, I didn't think anyone would ever get that reference again after 2004) and thank you.
Yeah, I'm not denying any of that, but I can't hate him for some reason. It just makes me think of him as another Tragic Character, though also one who is continually writing himself as such purposely.
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Post by Raven on Oct 14, 2009 17:20:30 GMT -5
I can't wait for a Zoe/Warren reunion. I wonder if she can get him to re-examine his actions. Will h e look back on everything he's done and still see it all as justified? When you basically destroy the very people you depend on for the safety for your entire Troop, and thus the whole damn city, you weaken the very foundation of all you claim to be working for. It's hypocritical. And that's what I can't stand. He just doesn't give a shit about them.
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Post by montbriac on Oct 15, 2009 7:37:20 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree that Warren doesn't care about the welfare of troop members -- I think he cares a great deal but his priority is the welfare of the sum of the whole and to that end, he is willing to sacrifice individual hopes to ensure an outcome that serves the greater good.
I don't think Warren always achieves this end, but it is his goal and he is sincere and wholly devoted in pursuit of it. Warren doesn't always see trees in the forest and this myopia is where he falls short as a leader -- then again, to keep a forest healthy, you do need controlled burns. Maybe that's Warren's mantra.
I don't condone or condemn Warren, I just try to understand and every time he shows up, I find myself devouring the text. I find it ironic that while he sees the world in absolute terms of black and white that he himself is one of the most gray characters in the series.
Like you, I am eager to see him meet up with Zoe again -- really, super eager. Zoe and Warren's story is epic and I'm a sucker for an epic!
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Post by Raven on Oct 15, 2009 12:18:08 GMT -5
I think Warren was too quick to toss Hunter to the bitches in Midheaven for him to actually care about him. MORESO, if he cared about Jo, he wouldn't have flat out called her a weapon and used her as one.
Excellent analogy about the forest and the controlled burns though. I just find myself wanting to PEE on something when I read about Warren. he makes me so angry.
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Post by montbriac on Oct 16, 2009 15:11:41 GMT -5
Well, Warren didn't push Hunter into Midheaven -- Hunter went there on his own.
Even after the showdown in the tunnels he could have fled to the outlaying area and become a Rouge but Hunter made another choice and the consequences and/or rewards of that choice falls on Hunter's shoulders.
There were other ways Hunter could have achieved his goal of finding Solange but of his own free will, he chose to deceive and use people who were close to him. He didn't just deceive Jo, he hid his deal with Regan from every member of the Troop.
I think Hunter's fate really is of Hunter's own making -- I have hope for the heartbreaking hunk that he'll be the hero I want him to be, but I think I'll have to wait for another book or two before I get that answer.
As for Warren telling Jo that he sees her as a tool for the mission of the Troop and that he'll do whatever he thinks it will take to shape and sharpen her in that role even if it means exposing her soul to risk -- I agree 100% that it's a raw deal for the individual and also that it can bite the group in the butt as a demoralizer even more so if in fact if Warren is wrong about what Jo's role is. I also think Warren could have handled that discussion better but Warren seems to be a refugee from Diplomacy and Tact.
I enjoy these discussions because I like other perspectives. At the same time, I just cannot place all of the blame for Hunter's situation on Warren nor can I place all of Jo's ignorance of the history of troop on Warren either -- she could have read the manuals from both sides all along. If she had even just read her mother's manuals she would have known about Warren's history with Zoe and she would have been in a position to understand how, why and what Warren was going to come at her with.
Warren might be the cataylst for catastrophe but he's not cause. Does this make any sense?
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Post by Raven on Oct 16, 2009 17:28:05 GMT -5
It makes total sense. And I agree with what you're saying about Hunter. Warren cannot be to blame for Hunter's actions. Only Hunter can. And Hunter alone chose to betray Jo and his troop. But I'm still pissed about the collective troop mindwipe that Warren pulled after he the J.J. switch. That's just WRONG.
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redmalkav
Mere Mortal
No Poet is this Jester Kin, Instead he is the Harlequin
Posts: 17
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Post by redmalkav on Oct 21, 2009 15:36:00 GMT -5
*Opens his mouth to add more to Montbriac's argument but realizes everything he wanted to say has already been said and merely claps instead*
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